Freelancer paid by country - is it fair?

For me, I think you should be able to post whatever fee you think is marketable for you. This site seems to be either openly discriminating based on location or they have some pretty good market research that tells them the best ranges based on location.

So, if you want to keep working with them, get a mailing address in a country like Germany and a VPN server originating in Germany. Then, list for $60/hour.

Yes, that's par for the course. But even none dev jobs.

Pay is established by locations cost of living and workforce. I've seen fast food hiring for $17 hr because they can't fill the positions.

Back to the point: I work in the USA up in Minnesota. My minimum is $40 plus an hour. I often wonder why, I've consulted for American clients who hired a complete dev team/company (5 plus people) for less then $10 an hour.

As a freelancer though, with out all the running around, car maintenance, gas etc I definitely can work for a lot less.

So long story short: it's normal, our profession maybe more so. It's a lot of money to develop stuff and many cases no return for a significant amount of time.

Youtubes never made a dime, though this year they might break even, but still almost a billion in the hole since google bought it.

Microsoft bought mine craft for like $30 million (google for the actual amount). No way in hell they will recoup that. But they have the users!

Usually a city where an average home cost 400,000 or 500,000 wages are highrer, now move to a city where you can buy a home for say 50,000 naturally wages are going to be smaller, but are they, no it's based on the surrounding economy and cost of living but it's kind of Common Sense that housing is going to play a direct impact on wages.

A humorous side note many of the unions in the United States raised their own selves out of work being greedy. Instead of being happy with a good Fair wage.

Lol, amen @jlrdw

@jekinney I am blessed in that I have had my career, semi retired now. I see it can be hard for some Freelancers to find good work with supply and demand the way it is. Seems like most places for every job that comes up you have 500 programmers competing times are tough I guess. And then of course you had the one programmer on another post willing to work for $5 an hour talk about laughing out loud.

And OP, not a question of being fair just the way it will be kind of have no choice in the matter.

@jlrdw

1. The city where you live is YOUR CHOICE. Are you priviled to get higher salary if you ride a Mercedes, comparing to a person riding Toyota?

2. This discussion is about remote jobs and that changes everything in my opinion. Your client doesn't care where you live. I understand higher value in close timezone and first language. But, keeping example Ukraine vs. Germany - for American client, they do represent exactly the same value if we assume they are equally skilled.

I understand this strategy, which is just to hire as many devs as possible. This company hires senior devs only (in theory, in reality there are some noobs). I think in remote world everybody should be treated equal. We don't use our locations as our asset, so it shouldn't mark our value.

As a result, client often pays more for worse specialists, just because he had bad luck to be assigned to him.

Does it really matter they are going to pay what they are going to pay so really a general discussion about is it fair is not even applicable. Unless of course you have the power to change what is paid. Where are you located at? And another option would be to be a true freelancer and don't go through a company for work. But I wish you the best of luck at finding good work.

So apparently people can only ask questions if they are able to make a change on their own. Interesting.

You are really taking this way too serious and reading way too much into it dude chill out some. You can ask any question you want asking questions has nothing to do with it. I could ask why does the sun shine but there's nothing I can do about the sun shining.

I could even ask why did the chicken cross the road.

So, if you want to keep working with them, get a mailing address in a country like Germany and a VPN server originating in Germany. Then, list for $60/hour.

@ejdelmonico I imagine entering into an employment contract with false information is illegal in most—if not all—countries.

Not really the “high horse” approach to a company who is merely paying its workforce commensurate to where they’re based. Every multinational company pays its workforce like this.

I've done it again, came up with the perfect answer, simply move to Germany.

Even --immck could not outdo that answer, as "wise" as he is.

@jekinney Where in MN? I'm in Princeton. :)

@RoboRobok the true of the matter is, whether good or bad -- this will always be the case, as long as people are willing to work for the rates offered. And, ultimately, at the end of the day, if you feel you're receiving a fair wage for the work you do, it shouldn't matter whether that is $5/hr, or $500/hr if it's mutually agreeable that's the end to the discussion really.

You guys only say it's common so far. The question raised is if it is fair in your opinion, not if it is common.

@martinbean You did any research to confirm this?

Life is not fair. End of story.

I agree with @willvincent maybe the difference isnt as big as comparing countries to each other but here in the Netherlands wages in Amsterdam for example are higher then inlands as well not only because companies located in Amsterdam tend to be bigger but the simple fact that housing is more expensive etc contributes to that as well.

Simple case of offer and demand.

@willvincent LOL small world.. I live up in bethel.

use to do basketball tournaments, three decades ago, in Princten

Here in the USA recently many are arguing for a higher minimum wage and CEO's shouldn't make so much money blah blah blah..

At the end of the day companies are: run by people or a person out to make money

So it's not like a un-feeling thing making offers, even if it seems that way. But a company is out to make money, just the same as MOST of us out to work to provide for ourselves (and family etc).

those forces can work together or compete. If they work together it usually means you get a great salary, against means you don't get paid/offered as much and probably resent it.

After 20 years in the military I can tell you for a fact: treat people like kids and/or crap they will respond eventually in kind. Treat people with respect and as an individual 99% of the time they rise up and strive to be the best. That goes to pay AND treatment/environment a company offers.

Personally I will take less pay for my opinion to matter more and enjoy the company culture then take higher pay and toxic company culture.

@jekinney Do you live in the USA? If so, you can't tell for people who do the same job for less than a half of the money.

@RoboRobok

I don't understand you point, sorry. If your stating that a freelancer in India can do the same job for half and not know the difference, you are correct!!!!

Yes, no, yes, no, I give up I don't know if you want yes answer or no answer?

@jekinney I just want some reasonable arguments for and against, which you still fail to provide. Keeping any discussion in "because that's the way it is" is just plain dumb, deluded and ignorant.

By the way, it's "you're", not "your". You're welcome.

No matter if you like it or not, life will never be fair. That's neither deluded, nor ignorant.

Next subject?

Are discussions on this forum always kept at that low level?

Say you live in a village in Africa where the cost of living is next to nothing and you were only paid a small amount to program versas someone in Germany a city where the cost of living is very high. I'll leave the riddle to whoever wants to solve it.

The bottom line is, as long as someone, anyone is willing to do the work for the lowest amount offered, it will be that way.. right or wrong doesn't matter, because to that person it's an acceptable amount. Is it "fair" .... fair doesn't matter, it's business, it's economics. It's life.

@RoboRobok Is there any reason why you need to stay with your current company? If the dynamics of the market are such that your services are just as valuable as those of the developers you reference in Germany, it ought to be possible for you to find another employer/client willing to pay the same amount ($60/hr) for them.

If that is indeed the case, while I would be inclined to agree with your assertion that your current employer's policy is unfair, what I would above all call it is misjudged — it is only a matter of time before all the good devs in less developed countries reach the same conclusion and find another employer willing to pay them the market rate ($60/hr).

Lets look at it another way @RoboRobok ... suppose we make everything "fair" and pay everyone, worldwide, the same amount. And nobody is able to do the work for less -- setting aside the fact that that will never happen -- at that point you realize that only the best of the best will be actively working, right? If everyone demands top dollar, nobody is able to work for less, and everyone must pay the same (high dollar) amount, basic principles of economics dictate that fewer people will work, and those who do will be the most capable/fastest/etc.

Life is not fair. If you think everyone in Ukraine should be paid the same as everyone in Germany, then all of those people currently working for $30/hr (which is not a terrible rate, incidentally) would have to collectively agree to no longer work for that price.

The consequence of that though would be that a large amount of the work would dry up and fewer people would work. Those fewer people would get their higher pay -- for a while, until those who can't get work get tired of making no money and decide that their previous $30/hr was a helluva lot better than their current nothing.

Meanwhile, a bunch of those jobs would have been moved to India, China, etc.. wherever there are people able and willing to do the work cheaper.

Is it right? Eh.. maybe maybe not. Is it fair? No, but as we've discussed it doesn't matter, it's life, it's business, it's economics. None of those things need be (or will be) fair.

And ya know, you could always go find business through a different source that is willing to pay more.

@willvincent he probably wants to hear that it's unfair. But it is fair because cost of living is different in different places.

Yeah, cost of living in Kiev is roughly half (or less than half) of that in Berlin.

But -- apparently since we live in the US, our opinions don't matter.