Why laravel dropped elixir? Why forcing Vue.js? what is it that you are trying to fix?

@antracks

Let me start by saying that your post here will most likely not reach anyone with influence and will only be viewed by Laravel users.

Laravel is an opinionated framework and follows more or less what Taylor wants. The good thing is that you don't have to use VueJS or WebPack.

I myself haven't put much time into learning VueJS yet so I use jQuery for my JS needs (I simply removed everything VueJS) and I haven't learned WebPack either so I removed those dependencies and instead installed the Elixir ones. I use Elixir + BrowserSync.

I know some companies/developers who use their own custom tools to deal with assets and don't use Laravel Elixir/Mix at all.

The point being this is like you buying a new PC laptop, it comes with 10 pre-installed programs, but you can uninstall those and install your own antivirus and whatnot..

First of all, no one is forcing you to use Vue.js. Eliminating it from the default Laravel install is literally as simple as removing 5 lines of code.

The HTML and FORM facades are still available as packages. I personally don't use them, as I don't like to have my HTML generated.

The same thing goes for Elixir. If you prefer it, just swap Mix for it in your package.json file.

Fair point; Officially recommending a front-end framework does seem misguided and has been mentioned in our office. We're not after a "one-stop-shop" framework. I believe mixing and matching packages is the way forward but I have confidence in Taylor. Not ready to walk away yet.

@SaeedPrez I agree with you 100% this is becoming full of bloatware.

@PawelMysior They pretty much are... when you try to import a vue js component and it works flawlessly but when you do the same with react or angular component it just breaks. That will give a new user the idea of "Hey Vue is better and thats why they are pushing it" laravel used to not have any favorites when elixir came out you can use angular, ember, and backbone with it flawlessly so what happened from then to now... It's simple priorities have become Vue.js if you can't see that I don't know what to tell you. plus tell me this when was the last time you saw react or angular or ember or backbone or any other framework in their package list? It's not their job to push a front end framework! I just want them to be honest and say whats going on behind the scenes!

I know most of the core team won't read this but i want to open the eyes of the very few people who would listen this is like trying to say in sciencetology is bullsh*t only 5 of 100 will realize the truth

@antracks haha, so what you're saying is that Vue being "included" in Laravel by default is some kind of a conspiracy?

I reckon Taylor chose to push Vue because it doesn't shove SPAs down your throat. I can't think of another modern client side framework that works in a jQuery(esque) way of simply allowing you to do stuff on a page with no bells or whistles.

Should Laravel be pushing any JavaScript frameworks at all? I can't see why not. You can't ignore JavaScript and it's really no different from Taylor choosing which PHP packages to construct the framework around.

@PawelMysior I dont know if it can be a consider a conspiracy but it sure is weird that they've never done this before and now they are promoting like crazy Vue.js and they they got Evan You on Laracon. I'm being 100% honest ever since laravel started promoting Vue.js it gave that framework a platform. There's a reason why Meteor or Google didn't support Evan You, Google has Angular, FB got React, Laravel got Vue. I don't know if you can't see there's a favoritism then I don't know what more to tell you. It's right in front of you.

For all we know, there can be nothing except that they like VueJS or feel it guides/helps majority of users to build complete applications..

Or perhaps there is more behind the scenes, maybe Taylor has a stake in VueJS, or maybe Laravel is sponsored by VueJS,..

All we can do is speculate why Laravel is promoting VueJS, but I have to say that when I did try VueJS 1.x, I really enjoyed working with it. However, I have not tried Angular/React so I can't offer any kind of useful opinion on this subject.

@ANTRACKS Good grief.

But most major companies don't use Vue.js we use React or Angular.

Awesome. Then use React or Angular.

I can't remember on what version you guys started putting Vue in the package but ever since you guys started promoting it the support for other front end frameworks have gone to sht.

How so? Give examples? How is Laravel making it hard for you to include React in your projects??

Elixir worked perfectly there was no reason to drop it. Sass would compile super fast and even the largest react app now is 2x slower at compile.

Webpack is doing significantly more things than Elixir. But if Elixir was working great, use it. Nobody is making you do anything.

I want the old laravel back the one that I put neck on the line for.. the one that was a backend framework for php not a backend framework with a favorite front end framework.

Pro Tip: Delete the package.json file in a fresh Laravel app, and you have your old Laravel back.

But people come to you guys for the backend not to force down our throats VUE.JS!!!

Decaffeinated brands exist on the market.

I'll be honest this will be the last time I use laravel for any new project.

k.

laravel used to not have any favorites when elixir came out you can use angular, ember, and backbone with it flawlessly so what happened from then to now.

This is entirely untrue. Many JS frameworks these days require special build processes and configuration. You don't know what you're saying.

plus tell me this when was the last time you saw react or angular or ember or backbone or any other framework in their package list?

Extra extra. An opinionated framework has a recommendation for which JS framework to use, and doesn't include a dozen different choices in its package.json file. Shocker. There is nothing stopping you from using any JS tools you want. Nothing.

when you try to import a vue js component and it works flawlessly but when you do the same with react or angular component it just breaks.

I assume you're not aware of mix.react() are you, or the request to add automatic Angular compilation on GitHub? https://github.com/JeffreyWay/laravel-mix/issues/470

@SaeedPrez

The point being this is like you buying a new PC laptop, it comes with 10 pre-installed programs, but you can uninstall those and install your own antivirus and whatnot..

Except none of these Webpack/Mix/Vue dependencies come pre-installed. You have to manually install them yourself.

For all we know, there can be nothing except that they like VueJS or feel it guides/helps majority of users to build complete applications.. Or perhaps there is more behind the scenes, maybe Taylor has a stake in VueJS, or maybe Laravel is sponsored by VueJS,..

Guys, take your tinfoil hats off.

@JeffreyWay no really what is the deal with Vue.js when did you guys sit down and chose to push Vue? It's pretty obvious now that this is becoming the vue stack? I would love to know what was the thought behind it. Because you can't say it's not true that you guys are putting alot of effort behind Vue I remember when you started with vue 1 but now it's like 100% with vue2. It's just weird to me no other framework does this. Imagine Django promoting Angular or Ruby On Rails Promoting React. I'm really not trolling I'm 100% just curious what happened... and who gave the ok for this massive push of Vue?

and yes I can go and delete everything and keep my original package but if something is not broke what exactly are you guys fixing? I'm sure ain't the only one just happen to be the only one who cares enough to want to know what's going on. but whatever I'm just user I don't really matter here just have to follow and shut up right cool.

peace

but WTF happened to laravel why do I have to do everything manually when it used to come with the framework already.

Did Laravel come with boilerplate for react at some point? That would be news to me.

There's a reason why Meteor or Google didn't support Evan You

care to elaborate?

@antraacks

It's just weird to me no other framework does this.

• https://twitter.com/dhh/status/808348184481124352?lang=en
• https://twitter.com/vuejs/status/835724551430553601

Imagine Django promoting Angular or Ruby On Rails Promoting React.

Rails is famous for promoting JS frameworks. Bad example.

and yes I can go and delete everything and keep my original package but if something is not broke what exactly are you guys fixing?

Dude, we're trying to make it easier to build applications. The core team likes Vue a lot and think it pairs well with Laravel. So we include a couple lines in a package.json file to get you started. Delete them, if you love Angular. Done. This is such a silly conversation.

I will never understand discussions like this one. Framework is FREE. It solves 80% of use cases and gets you building things.

Why does it matter what they're a pushing?

From Taylor's perspective, maybe he enjoys use it and likes it, so he included it.

Or maybe it came to him in a dream. But seriously, WHO CARES.

Use the tools, customize it and build things.

Quit complaining!

This is such a silly conversation.

BOOM!

@JeffreyWay

I agree with you.. I was trying to make a point that there is no point speculating, for all we know anything can be, because we simply don't know.. but at the end of the day, even if Laravel comes with a few suggestions/opinions, we are free to use whatever we want.. just like a PC comes with many pre-installed software or install-this-shortcuts ☺

Edit: I've learned through life experience that even if you want to say something against someone's opinion, you have to show a little friendship/sympathy first or they will take your opinion with war face and closed ears..

Glad to see you on the forums & hope family is doing well.

One should never criticize, only ask questions! Especially if something is provided for free.

This is not "design by committee"!

Unfortunately or fortunately most use some code spells.

Angular two actually mimics a lot of older version of vue, or the other way around. Angular cli comes with webpack in a similar set up as mix.

Doesn't React require jsx or whatever?

To be honest I never got on the Angular band wagon. To much just for some sugar but my current contract requires it. Why the heck do I need to import angular core in every page? (Ts or js). Why do I have to import form module thing to use ngModel?

On top of that it's better then angular one, but not as good as vue. Granted learning it after Vue makes it easier and it has page generators but angular (and I argue React) are bloated compared, especially if you utilize a full framework like Laravel. Yes there are use cases, but pretty rare.

End of the day, Coding with Vue is faster time wise, less overhead and faster performance wise. That is really all that matters.

Dang, takes 20 minutes to add a angular component as you have to import it in your app.components.ts in three places. Set up your HTML file, your ts file, import few files, then if needed your scss file. Find your links and add the links. Same thing in vue: one import in your app.js. One component file with template, script and maybe style tags and done.

Really guys? Quit whining and show appreciation for the hardworking people who make this an awesome framework to work with. Some of us actually love Vue (really easy for a beginner to pick up, unlike react), and love how Laravel makes it easy to integrate Vue in our applications. Vue is easy, simply, and fast, qualities I believe align very well with those of Laravel. Again, nothing stops you from using any JS framework or library in your Laravel app, or better fork the framework and take it in a different direction. Just Stop the Whining!

I'm not sure what the big deal is, its not like Vue is a cancer all over the place that you can't get rid of "think of Meteor and the Minimongo Cancer!!!", early stages trying to write a port to some other DB's "Rethink, pg etc", it was a nightmare, so hard in fact, that I gave up using Meteor.

Yes it is an opinionated framework, but by no means its "all or nothing" kinda framework, you can replace not only front-end packages but also the core packages if you so wish, or just start a project and use the Illuminate/* packages that you want, the options are endless.

I learnt Vue because of Laravel, at the start, I was like, hmmm... not sure about learning yet another front end framework "I was using React at the time"... but the more I used it, the more I liked it.

When a new version comes out, take some time to test it with the packages that you need, if you can't make something work, search on the web or post your issues so that other people can try and help. Going on a rant "I'm sorry, that was a rant" about how it "forces" you to use something when in fact it doesn't, really doesn't give us anything to help you with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2F-DItXtZs

its open source, use what you want, angular react, whatever

vuejs is a fair option, one reason being the inline templates - apt for a php framework like laravel. its also an easy learning curve.

As a "newbie" (from wordpress development), I want to thank laravel for introducing me into Vue. Playing around with it encouraged me to research alternatives which lead me to finding and understanding what Angular is. I still use vue though.

The OP and a few others raises some valid points from a "learners perspective".

What i mean is someone who's not familiar with the workflow (or laravels reiterations in general) and is just trying to follow along through the documentation / laracast videos could get confused conceivably if they're trying to roll their own laravel distro (to paraphrase a linux concept).

Both the aforementioned official resources show inherent bias towards doing things one way or the other without much or any emphasis on providing a comprehensive range of alternatives (which is of course their right, they are not a humongous entity like lynda.com, and they have no obligation to do so).

I can understand this frustration as i've faced it myself way back when elixir first became a thing.

(storytime kids, can skip to tac tac)

When it was first introduced i was on a win7 machine and because node at that time didn't have package leveraging, dependency structures within node_modules became highly nested and as a result the 260 char path limit (windows) could was not honored and i couldn't use elixir.

It was frustrating as hell because i had just started learning laravel and in laracasts videos i would always see Jeff or Taylor one-lining-it with a config via elixir and everything would just magically work. As such i was forced to learn gulp for myself and config my own automated workflow.

Before Jeffs series on SOLID and further investigating the concept i also never understood why anyone would bother to use gulp (which is an API in itself) and then create another API (elixir) on top of it?

Always seemed like a useless abstraction to me, thankfully "Uncle Bob" Martin set me straight on the importance of polymorphism/interfaces and following that train of thought it's easy to see why elixir was created.

But i digress.

--

All that said, the OP has made it clear they have used laravel for quite some time i.e. they are not someone brand new... making all this a little confusing because it should mean they are aware they can edit package.json before running install and can remove/change any front end dependencies they want.

If you want to be even lazier still, just alter the package.json once and at that point push to your own git repo to be cloned at your convenience when you need to start a new project with all the packages pre-config'd.

Furthermore in saying the following :

"I want the old laravel back the one that I put neck on the line for.. the one that was a backend framework for php not a backend framework with a favorite front end framework."

The OP has completely disregarded the presence of lumen.

Points for rant of the month, but mostly untrue.

@MWrathDev maybe I'm not able to see their perspective. I've watched countless series on here that I don't particularly like or agree with the approach or methodologies. Not everything you see, read and explore has to be the truth, for you! When I recieve advice I constantly try to mold it in a way that fits me and what works for me. Jeff is a great teacher, and he emphasises a lot of "his way of doing things". Which is expected because that's who he is and he's sharing his knowledge. But that doesn't mean that I have to make it more difficult for myself and try to do everything how he does it. I make it work for me. Many on here are too focused on the details. They're not focused on the bigger picture. I watch every single video on here because I like programing. I watch a lot of conference videos that have nothing to do with PHP, because at the end of the day it's about concepts and execution. The tools are just a way of getting there.

When I attended college, a lot of classes were about stuff like tables for layout in HTML. CSS was up and coming but the lectures still focused on "the old way". So I decided to drop all of my web classes and took photography, earning bachelor of fine arts from UMASS Amherst. I would spend countless hours after school, right-click-view-source, copy paste, followed some of the professionals in the field. I saw at what rate this field was changing. So I altered the way I wanted to consume and learn.

When I graduated, I was a wedding photographer for 3 years, doing quite well with 18 weddings my first year. In photography, the worst thing you can do is look at photographs from your field, it leads to copying instead of capturing the story as it happens. So often I would look at architectural, portrait photography images for inspiration.

Anyways, I guess my point is you have to know who you are and what you want to learn, and how. Many don't realize Windows 95 was the first time general public really started accessing the web, our field is young so changes, constant learning are part of that growth.

As a child I survived a civil war in Bosnia, resources were scarce many, kids spent years without going to school. Accessing the internet... LMFAO. And now we legit have access to abundance of information and resources. So for me discussions like this are so offensive, especially to @JeffreyWay he has done so much with sharing his knowlage that he doesn't deserve this. And this applies to @TaylorOtwell They had so much impact on the community for anyone to put them down, or criticize them for "this doesn't work for me" should be ashamed.

Best, Alen

I think this has gone off topic. OP may have been a bit belligerent but I don't think he meant to criticize Vue, just questioning the wisdom of officially recommending one front-end framework. Scope creep...

I don't think RoR, Zend, Symfony or Cakephp officially recommend a front-end framework? (I'm asking). I think RoR ships with Coffeescript but that's not comparable.

Would be great to see more front-end variety but still a big fan of Laracasts. Learnt tons and tons.

You know what, while we're on this topic I have some griefs I'd like to expell too...

Why is Laravel FORCING me to use PHP?!? I want to do this in perl!

Why am I even being FORCED to write any code? Why isn't there a php artisan make:unicorn_startup for me?!?!

I'm leaving and going back to PHP 4.3!

Well, just think about it. According to npm stats the most popular JS frameworks right now are React, AngularJS (the first one), Backbone and Vue.

You can argue that among these React and Vue are the ones that make more sense to push because they ain't monolithic and were developed with a newer paradigm in mind (including, but not only, one-way data flow, componentized architecture, ES6+ etc.) .

React is all about render functions. The only way you can integrate it with your Laravel stack is by mounting on some empty container in the middle of html and pulling required data via ajax call. Is this a valid way to do things? Sure. Is it semantic and natural in the Laravel environment when you simply want to sprinkle jQueryesquee behavior around? Absolutely no.

And on other hand we have Vue with it's inline templates and mustache like syntax that can be easily used directly inside Blade. You can even throw json encoded data in Vue components right from php.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out which is the better option for Laravel backend.

I don't think RoR, Zend, Symfony or Cakephp officially recommend a front-end framework? (I'm asking). I think RoR ships with Coffeescript but that's not comparable.

BTW, Symfony did the same thing once if you didn't know. It was called Assetic. It's just that they did it too early in the game when npm wasn't even a thing yet and sucked at it so you don't see people talking about it a lot. But it's very popular in the wild even today (with horrible coffescript code and vendor libraries downloaded by hand and meshed with your sources, lol). And you have already seen the comment on RoR earlier. Ultimately, everyone does it at some point because it makes sense. Framework is all about offering reasonable opinions that most of us can agree on.

@adiachenko fyi: Assetic is an asset pipeline, not a JS framework. And I admit, I vehemently disagree with your technical assessment of the JS framework options.

But a constructive response :)

@primordial You can argue that it's pretty opinionated as an asset pipeline because having talked with multiple colleagues and seeing some Symfony job offers, it became clear that people still commonly build coffeescript with it (Assetic doesn't offer much else of value and it's an old tool). Not all of that are even legacy projects. I wager if Elixir/Mix offered coffeescript by default people would go nuts right here right now.

And all WE are talking about is scaffolding a couple of Vue components with a setup that is otherwise not all that different from industry proven CRA.

My point is that everyone is making these opinionated decisions for you in some way or the other. It's simply your choice whether to embrace it, ignore it or bitch about it. :)

@adiachenko Sorry, i'm not sure why you are talking about Assetic? OP was talking about Vue, so am I.

I believe the community would benefit/appreciate more support from Laracasts for alternatives such as Angular, React, Backbone, Ember, Knockout etc..

As for "bitching about it" you can be a belligerent and rude as you wish. I sincerely hope Jeffery will take a more constructive stance.