Employer Training Expectations

This has been coming up at my current employer from the team I am on. Kind of a debate if you will and I am looking for feedback and opinions.

Overview: Team is smaller with 6 PHP developers. Currently polishing (think turd) a Code Igniter 2 app as we transition to a new Laravel API with a few different Vue "portals" for the different kind of users (Admin, Clients, Counsels, etc.). The team is fully remote and global with a mix of direct hires and contractors.

Few of the devs are what I call 9-5 ers and obviously they are contractors (unless specified, most salary have expected working hours to fluctuate as needs arise) that at 5pm will drop what they are doing and gone. I have been in the middle of paired programming for a ticket and was told we needed to stop, got to go it's 5pm. Got something to do? Nope, just 5pm and time to not work. Great so the other team members now have to finish your half done work.

This debate started when I was rejecting pull request because code had no doc blocks, comments, and/or was coded for 100% readability and not performance (assigning data to a variable, then assigning the new variable to another variable, etc). When we where talking it over I happen to ask a few questions about PHP life-cycle they couldn't answer. I sent them some links to videos totaling maybe 20 minutes explaining the life cycle and some got yeahs to watch out for. Few weeks later I asked the same question and was told "No time to watch the videos".

My Perception: Years ago we use to make fun of the old IT guy who still insists on using 20 year old networking equipment. Come to find out it's because the person so comfortable and knowledgeable about the current system that "works" they just don't want to spend the time and energy learning something new. To compound this, the person usually been at the company for decades and is respected enough leadership doesn't question it.

I have always taken the time out side of work hours to always try to keep up to date and learn the latest and greatest to be sure I am not "that guy" outlined above. I generally strive to become familiar with what ever but not necessarily to a point where I could use it. We can't all be masters of everything as a few devs resumes may state (LOL).

All that said, I feel that we as devs, and what I look for when I hire is experience and knowledge. Obviously I am not talking about interns or junior Devs, continued training and help is expected but that is why compensation isn't as good. Common sense should dictate If we want to progress up the ladder to a true Senior Developer or higher, we are ultimately responsible for our training. I have always been of the mind set at the end of the day, it's me and not a company responsible for my career progression. If they don't fit my needs or goals, I look for a spot that does. The other place will learn and sometimes the hard way what is appropriate when they can't meet dead lines and lose money. Seems a waste of time and more importantly effort to complain. Not to get all political, but many places who are wanting devs back in the office are losing whole teams over that choice. Many of those leaders either got let go or changed course real quick.

Lastly I do agree as we trasition from php and jquery frontend to Vue CLI apps, that training needs to be provided and offered to help the devs get to a point where they can code, not really efficient but workable. Once again at the end of the day it's on you to become an asset to the company enough they don't want to let you go because of you talents, abilities, knowledge, etc.

Other Perception: Company should always provide training and the time to train. Don't expect them to learn anything on their own time 99% of the time.

jlrdw

3 years ago

Level 75

All I will say on this, and it's just my opinion, I still believe jQuery in the long run will outlive vue.

Just look at the versions so far of vue. If you had written a complete application using version 1 would it still be good in version 3.

Then ask yourself if you had written the same application but used jQuery and the exact same time, would compatibility still be the same.

I have Rewritten some applications to use fetch JS and vanilla JavaScript, I would actually go with that rather than some of the popular libraries that change all the time.

But just my opinion.

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jekinney

3 years ago

Level 47

@jlrdw Good stuff and good questions. Not really the point of the post but along the lines.

The versioning is what has caused Angular issues with huge syntax changes.

The answer to your question from my perspective is life cycle. Each app should have a projected life cycle do to base versions. IE: PHP or in this case JavaScript integrations. At some point all applications get outdated from external for many reasons but IMO mainly has to do with technology, layout, and security issues. I still see people running vanilla PHP since mid 2000's and running fine for intranet sites. Some using Laravel 4 or 5 still etc.

My point was you get hired to be a Laravel and vue (full stack) developer. Who responsible to live up to that expectation? The employer or employee? I say mainly the employee and as vue, in this case, gets updated having access and a few hours to training resources by the employer is great thing but shouldn't be expected.

Good interview question though.

jlrdw

3 years ago

Level 75

@jekinney I spent years in java technology (jsp, servlets, beans), and java has had good backward compatibility. Php also has decent backwards compatibility. Jaascript has good backwards compatibility.

So what does not have good compatibility? These newer (fadish) frontend frameworks, that if you wrote something today, and later wanted to upgrade to a new version, it probably wouldn't work.

I was curious, I created a jakarta ee 9 project just to see if a very old j2ee 1.4 would work.

I only had to change the imports from java to jakarta, and all worked. J2ee 1.4 was from 2003.

Just me, but I like good backwards compatible technology. I wouldn't want to work for a "the latest thing" company.

Many enterprise companies use jquery. Me I use it still sometimes, but lately I have been using fetch js.

But just my opinion on the subject.

Edit:

As far as training, I would expect someone to learn the code, the why part especially. I would not want someone who just copies and paste code. Asking on a forum is fine, but take the answer and learn the "how it works and why"

Just FYI, I learned in an age when there were no forums, no google, no windows. You bought books or went to the library to learn more. Thus no copy and paste.

Is the person a "take the ball and run with it" person is more important than being up to date on the latest thing.

Edit 2:

I think two good interview questions would always be:

In laravel what is the one PHP method that makes facades possible. __callStatic

And

How would you pull up a year old customer invoice. On this one if they think they can pull it up from related data of course that's incorrect, line items have to be hard coded because prices and products change.

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AlexSteele

3 years ago

Level 45

To answer your question about expectations - Learning and adapting with new programmatic skill sets is not that different. What people focus on, they become. Over-reliance on an employer or some outside force to enable people to create positive change will fail, because at some point, corporations stop investing in those people. As individuals, we must always choose to invest in ourselves. Find the places where there are weak spots, and bolster those up. Re-framing this so its both fun and exciting, well that is up to each person. In order to keep learning, one must to put themselves in a place of discomfort so there can be growth. just enough, though. too little or too much will yield poor results, and so one cannot expect anyone else to understand or know where that line it.

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