@primordial How is it even rude, man?

We are here because OP is feeling pressured due to a few members of particular open-source community having an opinion about something and providing some basic tooling and learning resources for it. Deleting all traces of Vue from default Laravel installation takes practically less than a minute. You ain't even forced to stop using laravel-mix. Last time I checked, it's not really coupled to any particular framework (it's literally couple of lines in loaders section and module resolution settings that can be swapped by ejecting this file). It's even more decoupled from Vue than Elixir was in the pre-4.0 era.

Don't you think this whole topic is a bit silly?

The framework is what it is. What concerns me more is the path laracast goes regarding the laravel-framework/php portion. In the last few months the focus is more on javascript than laravel itself. Except Laravel from scratch and How to accept payments, there is no new content regarding php, not really. I would love to see more content like code katas, complete projects like Project Flyer and Larabooks, Incremental API's and similar great content that, in the meantime, are outdated. The forum is still a great resource, but too often I search and find resources for laravel and php somewhere else

I can't understand how anyone can sit down and look at a fresh Laravel application and walk away with the impression: "I'm force to use Vue"... the welcome page doesn't use Vue, the make:auth pages don't use Vue. I don't get it.

Let me start by saying that your post here will most likely not reach anyone with influence and will only be viewed by Laravel users.

I stand corrected ☺

If everyone new to programming would learn the basics as you suggest first they would know that vue is optional but some install the framework with no prior skill and whatever is installed with laravel in their minds that is what they are going to need. As a newcomer they don't look at what's optional and what's not optional.

A newbie does not think like a skilled developer like in the Air Force we sent a young Troop to get a double barreled rivet from the sheet metal shop to plug a mis-drilled hole, it was a joke there is no such thing as a double barreled rivet.

No arguments here just saying a newbie and a seasoned developer looks at things completely different.

I stand corrected

@SaeedPrez took me by surprise to.

As a beginner both in Laravel and VUE.Js this is my response:

Yes, even I feel laravel is forcing VueJS. Initially I had the same reaction that you wrote. However, after working on both from last 2 months - I feel they are moving in right direction as they are directly competing with languages such as NodeJS, Angular etc.

I designed my first SaaS software using Laravel/VueJS https://www.pi.team - it is finance/accounting simplified. Generate invoices, and get paid. I had option to do this in JS/PHP too, but doing it in Laravel was a better experience. Although it took some time initially but later programming was easy and less buggy.

Like you ask why angular force TypeScript :D you get awesome framework for free to make your life easier and you still complain Taylor And Jeffrey give us best tool on world please don't complain. Even Vue.js right now most users love why not to promote something so good what can make your site so fast because its lightweight Thumb up for Jeffrey and Taylor good job guys :) Also delete few lines and add angular its just so easy

@antracks well! well! well! i think laravel is a very flexible framework, my point?? you can alter it to exactly suit your needs.

Hey, took me 5 seconds to swap out Vue for React... Am I doing this right? I feel cheated that it wasn't harder.

Ugh, thanks, Taylor!

Pfft.. laravel doesn't force anything, it encourages things (strongly in some cases, like it's own packages -- eloquent, for example) but nothing is forced upon you.

And frankly, having worked with several other JS frameworks, most notably Angular 1 and 2.. I very much prefer Vue. It's so much easier to be productive with Vue, and Vue makes so many less assumptions about what you're building -- namely it doesn't assume you're building a SPA.

Oh the Googleplex all those wasted bytes clogging the web server. You need to review the history of browser based interfaces. And please lookup what front-end programming is.

@jldrw & @jimmck This little tiff between the two of you is really obnoxious. Even if it is -- as @jlrdw claims: "just for fun" -- you're both starting to come off as nothing more than argumentative jerks.

Congratulations, you are poisoning this community.

@willvincent Hey. I apologize for that. I don't take to bullies and normally ignore them. Which I will do. Point taken.

Woah, this thread blows my mind. Anyways, here is something for you: https://mattstauffer.co/blog/removing-all-vue-dependencies-from-laravel

Matt handles the immense task of removing Vue like a pro.

Damn, the amount of bitching here is unbelievable.

For me, every time a new Laravel version comes out, I feel like I'm getting a box of sweets.

Why so miserable, people? Laravel is amazing software that you get for free.

@jlrdw Why would you think that recommending Vue confuses newcomers? If they can't open Vue docs or Vuecasts to understand the goals of Vue, they have much bigger problem than being new to the dev world/framework. The same applies to Bootstrap or Eloquent. It shouldn't matter if some of them think that it's 100% required. It just means, they should learn more and understand the technologies separately, before trying to combine them.

I honestly think that having a recommendation is much better for newcomers than doing research about React, Angular, Ember, Vue, Aurelia, ... if you just want that damn form to be posted asynchronously.

If you've used Laravel for a while and had a need for it, it literally takes 2 minutes to swap Vue with React and Bootstrap with Bulma.

< rant >

I've been working with Laravel since version ~3, and I can't remember a feature that I didn't like even if I had no use for it at the time of each new release. But for whatever reason, lately, people have been going crazy about how open-source frameworks keep adding/improving features, and these are forced upon us -- poor developers. Guys like Taylor, Evan, TJ and many others are working on this free stuff incredibly hard, yet not many people seem to appreciate it.

It's like Jeffrey wants you to use command bus with Vue for the landing page because you've been a naughty boy. It's all just tools and recommendations. Pick those you like and feel right for the job and have the rest in the back of your head if you need them later. Why this message, which Jeffrey mentions in most of the videos, seems never to be heard?

</ rant >

this is funny its like I dropped a bomb or something lol Do I have a right to speak my mind ? Yes?

when was the last time I started a ruby on rails project and saw angular on it? never!

The idea that "Hey STFU because its free and you should kiss their feet because of it"

It's kinda ridiculous...

The main reason I made this post is because I've been around since Laravel 3 and I've seen something that I know ain't right. No one needs to have a tin hat to notice the favoritism for Vue.js. If it werent for me you wouldn't have added support to react. (and you know it!!!)

https://laravel.com/docs/5.4/mix#working-with-scripts

React support wasn't there when you guys released 5.4 or was it? No....

Others that say o it takes 2 minutes to swap it out. Cool... thats great... but you guys is missing the point!!!!

Laravel has a certain respect from developers if you come and start promoting a framework like vue the horde of zombies are going to just follow because "LARAVEL SAID IS GOOD" and it's a problem because people come here for a great backend framework not a "Great BACKEND FRAMEWORK THAT PROMOTES THE SH*T OUT OF FRONTEND FRAMEWORK" especially with a framework which is the ugly baby of react, angular and backbone threesome.

The moment Laravel put vue.js in their package file vue.js tripled the attention of everyone in the industry. Now don't tell me thats a coincidence. vue 1 was bad and vue 2 just copied everything.

Last words is stay in your lane I don't go to Starbucks expecting to buy a hamburger. Even better would you rather buy a real iphone from apple.com or an iphone knockoff from alibaba.com

Stop taking criticism as if it's personal love ya for the backend framework.

Just to add valuable information, instead of using npm use yarn

https://yarnpkg.com/en/

... and yes you choose whatever you want to use in your applications, Laravel is open

Happy Coding !

Laravel 5.5 is going to support react also by default and also gives you the option to disable all of them https://laravel-news.com/frontend-presets

@HRcc in answer to your question: There are a couple kinds of newbee's

• One that actually follows the correct learning path.

• The one that installs laravel, and expects it to be like a magic code generator.

As an example, when I see a newbee asking what a querystring is, need I say more.

Can i get some type of credit for getting them to put react on laravel 5.5? Ya do know i'm the reason they added it right... lol I've served my purpose have a good one guys !

@antracks No you don't get any credit. No one else takes credit when they contribute or suggest an idea. It was hardly a problem solver.

It's not hard to add React or any other JS framework to your application.

I think the big problem is how some of these package managers like npm, composer all kind of force us to use the latest framework. I would be content using Laravel 5.1 for the current project I'm working on except the latest packages and plugins all break on Laravel 5.1 because they aren't built for it. Kind of makes it a moving target. It's nice to know that we can still use elixr if it's inconvenient to switch at the moment. Would be nice to have some sort of version management for packages in these frameworks where if the package needs an old dependency we can still use it while using the new one instead of being forced to upgrade to the latest on everything. I've now been through 5 versions of Laravel since I started my project. The latest changes are the biggest and are requiring me to go through several hundred files to conform to the new way of doing things.

I've unfortunately just skimmed though most of this thread. It's gotta be the most silly discussion ever. Unless you're a beginner I have no idea how you can look at Laravel and claim it's forcing you to use Vue. Literally no idea. Laravel gives you a couple of lines of code as a starting point.

The answer to you rant is very simple. If you don;t like Vue simply take the whole 10 seconds it takes to remove it from the app.

Hell, Laravel 5.5 has the command php artisan preset none which removes all frontend presents.

I'm really confused / interested as specifically why you looked at Laravel and stated it forces Vue upon you.

In all the time you've invested in this thread you could have deleted those couple of Vie related lines of JavaScript setup and started writing your app in another JavaScript framework.

@pneves What are you talking about? Laravel, or any version of it, does not force you to use any specific JavaScript framework or place any limitation on what npm packages you can (wtf?). It has a few lines of boilerplate code purely as starting point.

This thread is so confusing.

I don't mind that vue is shipped with laravel, but i would like to see on laracasts.com tutorials on angular/react integration with laravel.

I agree with TS ... Vue is "forced" more and more. Many people say "its integrated", "they belong to each other" and "pefect match". It almost seems there is no more then just Vue. The official documentation of Laravel now is "ruined" with Vue.js examples.

I have to agree; its easy to learn. But in bigger projects with larger code bases that is where vue fails bigtime.

Besides that; new JS frameworks popping up almost every day and who is going to tell Vue survives? Agree, popularity is growing rapidly .. but the actual number of production sites build with Vue is still very very low.

I respond to @jlrdw (1 year ago)

"The problem - newbees who know no better actually believe Vue can be a frontend."

Currently im in a new team with Laravel coders (im a freelancer). These guys have 1-2 years of work experience and they all believe that frontend = vue. Plain HTML / CSS? Not done. "Jquery"? Stupid and for old people.

In our team there are many problems with vue. For example this one: "You are running Vue in development mode." This took 3 guys at least a few days to figure out what the problem was, and still, it is not solved.

If i search for a solution: i end up with Laracasts: https://laracasts.com/discuss/channels/vue/disable-you-are-running-vue-in-development-mode-warning

Kinda weird all ... dont mix Laravel with Vue. Its like a horse and a donkey trying to breed.

I don't get the point.... I have no idea about Vue, I dont use view I couldn't care less about view...

I just develop my ideas using whatever part of laravel I need. Nobody forces me to use Vue or passport or whatever.

Even if there is some kind of financial connection to Vue then good for Taylor. He is not taking my money...

I'm just glad they added php artisan preset none to remove all of that crap (easily) on new projects. That should be the default imo. If you want to add vue or react or bootstrap, then run the command to add them, but there shouldn't be anything included in a fresh project. My .02